I haven't contributed to the roundtable before, and I hope this is in the right vein.
First read through thoughts are: I really enjoyed the modernity of the story and the change of cultural location, which worked beautifully with the familiar storyline. As the tale progressed I felt that the time period was somehow shifting to a more ancient, darker time. It was almost like parallel worlds, which to me, alludes to the two versions of Beatrice's experience. The life she planned and the one she ended up with once Samuel wooed/derailed her! The horror of her trapped existence and the potential that the dead wives will free her by consuming her, or Samuel - either of which scenarios would release her.
I agree that the story's retelling held true to the old tale, while adding the richness and particularly different facts for a fresh view. I felt the author enjoyed creating the horror of the 3rd room, quite different and more lurid than even the original tale.
Hello Kathie-Louise, and Joan. Thank you for offering your thoughts on this tale, and my apologies for taking so long to response. I was not trapped in a third or hidden room, but offline for a while dealing with some health issues.
I'm fascinated by your sense, Kathie-Louise, that the story seems to shift to a more 'ancient, darker' time after Samuel and Beatrice marry: I'm wondering if this is partly due to the way that (dark) magic, old patterns, and the dead appear in these sections, while earlier the story takes place in the more social, real world?
Intereting, too, that you describe Hopkinson's retelling as more 'lurid', Joan! I think that's true of quite a lot of more contemporary Bluebeard retellings, which do seem to relish and expand the horror aspects of the tale: more moodiness in the setting, more of a sense of threat in the husband, more lush descriptions of the fantastical and horrific elements. Did you enjoy this more lush, Gothic approach to the story? Or do you prefer the more pared-back aesthetic of the traditional tales?
I enjoyed reading the interpretation of this classic tale from a fresh cultural perspective, especially the clear combination of Beauty and the Beast with Bluebeard. The snake, such a world wide creature of evil, or awakening, surely gives Beatrice the opportunity to change her fate where her street smartness and the motherly advice would not suffice, a creature which may or may not be a reference to Christianity. It speaks loudly, as does "Bluebeard," of women's abilities to see what is in front of her...or not.
I would like to hear any voice suggesting the roll of eggs in the story, whether those with a hard shell consumed by the snake, or the one, soft and unprotected which Beatrice holds in her hand as she discovers the horrors wrought by "Black Beauty."
Hello Joan! So lovely to hear your thoughts on Hopkinson's tale. (My apologies for the delay in getting back to you! I've been offline/unwell).
I do think the snake in Hopkinson evokes the Christian Biblical images of the serpent in the garden of eden. The similarities/links between Bluebeard, and the temptation of Eve, have been noted and explored by various scholars and creators: it's no great surprise that Hopkinson might also draw on that Christian imagery.
At the same time, I wonder if the snake is always seen as evil, in folklore and other cultural settings. In Ancient Rome, the snake was associated with Asclepius, the god of healing, and snake amulets were often worn to promote healing and bodily wellbeing. They are also often associated (in various cultures) with transformation and rebirth (perhaps because of their shedding and renewal?), as well as with oracles and seers. The symbol of the ourobouros (the snake swallowing its own tail) is associated with cycles, renewal, and rebirth. Can you think of other positive, or more neutral, ways in which snakes show up in culture and folklore? (Or perhaps more unusual or unfamiliar negative associations!).
Carina is correct (thanks C!) that the egg appears in Fitcher's Bird, a variant of Bluebeard included in the Grimms' KHM. Margaret Atwood also uses the image of the egg in her short story, 'Bluebeard's egg' (which appeared in the short story collection of the same title), and within the story explores some of the folkloric and fairy-tale imagery of the tale type, as well as the meaning of the egg as a symbol: of virginity in its uncracked, pure state, of (potential) motherhood, and of murder and death when dirty. Atwood's tale also includes images of a bloodied egg (which reminds me of the folkloric narrative about Mary M and Jesus: that when he encounters her on the road after he's risen from the grave, he touches an egg she is carrying, and it turns blood-red.)
Snakes, of course, are also egg-layers ...
My chickens recently hatched some new chicks, and watching that process reminds me that eggs (like wombs) are great keepers of secrets. Are (sacred) secret chambers, which we must not open until the correct time. And within which we never know (until the hatching) what is hiding/growing.
I wonder what symbolic or cultural associations snakes and/or eggs have in Carribean culture?
The egg comes from Fitcher's Bird (ATU 311), which has many similarities to Bluebeard. What I think works so well in Nalo's story is the representation of the egg as a symbol of fertility. The cultural aspects related to skin color and the antagonist's desire for a wife with light skin adds another level of observation. It's brilliant!
The forensic aspect of the tale is kind of glorious and I'm still enjoying that line: "The duppy wives held their bellies and glared at her, anger flaring hot behind their eyes." I love the anger of the 'murdered wives.' I do love the tale more when it shifts from the murderer to the victims. And the mother's influence is intriguing - how her initial anger and pushiness is warped to the husband's desire.
Hello Rebecca-Anne and Kathie-Louise! Thanks for your lovely response, Rebecca, and my apologies for being slow to reply.
It's a strong feature of contemporary feminist retellings of fairy tales to shift to a female character's viewpoint, and to give previously silent or voiceless characters a voice: control of their own narrative. I agree, that's part of the strong appeal of many feminist retellings of Bluebeard, including Hopkinson's grand and dark tale :)
The rage of the murdered wives is wonderful. I've just been reading a collection of ghost stories, in which there's lots of evidence that we often think of ghosts as angry, and vengeful. That often they're the 'victims' of murders or untimely death: their rage enough to allow them to still appear in the living world until the injustice they suffered is corrected or repaired.
Is this, then, a kind of ghost story? Hmmm ...
I love the mother, too, and her role in the story. There's so much rich exploration in this story of the intersections of race, ethnicity, class, power, and gender, and how so much of that is acted out on the bodies, and in the lives, of (men and) women. But especially young women: the most disempowered folk, whose choices are so often (historically and now?) constrained.
How do you feel about the mother, and her role, by the story's end? Do you have any sympathy or understanding for why and how she pushes the daughter into the relationship? Is she a victim of racism and class/gender crap, too, or maybe--like Aunt Lydia in Atwood's *Handmaid's Tale*--an upholder of sexist and racist values? Or is her character more complex than that? More ambiguous?
That was the bit I chewed over for a long time - the mother's role. She starts in a really positive way - but she may just be a lesson in how the offer of comfort and security overcomes intial feminist ambition? It would be interesting to play with how it relates to today's 'tradwife' trend, too, particularly with those intersections of race and power? Particularly when you look at how many of the 'tradwives' have built their own independent businesses on submissive beliefs. Hmmm... I haven't quite thought that through yet!
I do really really like the idea of Bluebeard as a ghost story and it would be so effective that way. The shift to justice in the tale is much more appealing than the old chestnut about feminine curiosity.
I think that's definitely one way to read the mother: as an example of how our politics are never 'pure' but often situational, contextual, and ... partial? How what we consider good and ethical and appropriate behaviour is impacted by a complex weave of factors, that includes our politics, but isn't reducible to them.
Interesting idea about tradwives and the mother. I'm thinking that there have, historically, been a few women who have gained fame, power, etc, by arguing against women's rights and autonomy historically, as well (I'm thinking of folk like Phyllis Schlafly, or those women who got behind the #WomenAgainstFeminism trend in 2014). Maybe there is something interesting there to explore about why women participate in their own oppression and/or the oppression of other women? (And, in Hopkinson's story, why people of colour might participate in the oppression of themselves and other POC).
I'm intrigued by this idea of justice in the fairy tale. Zipes has that whole thing (in which text! I'm drawing a blank right now!) about how the world of the fairy tale leans towards justice, and that that is part of it's appeal. I think this is true of many fictional worlds, actually. Both realist and non-realist. But perhaps more obviously true in fairy-tale fiction, where justice is often even more important to a story's resolution than the traditional HEA.
I like your much better encapsulation of the mother's politics!! And exactly - there is a curious twist where women do turn on each other and it crops up in the oddest places. Underlying misogyny impacts us all.
Zipes did right about the leaning toward justice and I can't recall which book either! I think Marina Warner touched on it too? In speaking about the Arabian Nights, she says “The stories are most often about justice. In her stories, those who commit injustice, or act tyrannically, come to no good. They are punished.” The retribution! I think that's the most satisfying part. All the gruesome deaths of the villains.
Hi Nike, Happy New Year to the O&B. I do agree that the length & detail of the last roundtable was a bit overwhelming - & that's from someone currently working on several Bluebeard reimagining projects (with one poem just published). But, also its timing (2 days before Xmas) may have factored in with the low responses in this instance! I had to divide my reading of it over at least 2 sittings, then make another time to quickly re-read & reply.
As Bluebeard is my current "passion project", I wanted to ensure I responded - & did so a few days ago, engaging with the material & asking some questions - & no one has responded or even indicated it's been read with a "like", so I have to say when a writer makes that effort & there's no response at all ... well, it ends up not really feeling like a roundtable! I was discouraged in my intention to return & make some more observations by that lack of response.
I think a little less info & a little more spaciousness is a great approach for the new year. I'll try & make time to read this re-telling today.
Hello Melissa. The traditional tale is meant to be an introduction. It's been a busy end of the year, but I've responded to your comment. It sounds like you have an interesting project in the works.
This issue's reading roundtable focuses on a specific 'Bluebeard' tale-- Nalo Hopkinson's 'The glass bottle trick'. It's one of my personal favorites when it comes to 'Bluebeard' retellings. By placing this tale in a different cultural context, I think she opens the story up in a new and unexpected way. The blue bottles and the egg create vivid images. Looking forward to seeing what you think of it.
Hello Melissa! Lovely to hear from you. Thanks for your feedback on the reading roundtables, and your experience of responding to the traditional tale but not hearing back for a while. As you say, and Carina affirms, the December/January turnover is a busy and distracted time for so many of us: we're grateful for your patience and forbearance.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Hopkinson's short story when you have time to read and post. Perhaps it will influence your creative process/thoughts on how to retell this old, and often retold, story with a fresh twist or take.
The protagonist only falls for him when she receives eggplants (eggs again) from his garden. I assumed this implied a magical aspect to the turn of feeling, much like the blue bottles kept the angry spirits of his previous wives at bay.
I haven't contributed to the roundtable before, and I hope this is in the right vein.
First read through thoughts are: I really enjoyed the modernity of the story and the change of cultural location, which worked beautifully with the familiar storyline. As the tale progressed I felt that the time period was somehow shifting to a more ancient, darker time. It was almost like parallel worlds, which to me, alludes to the two versions of Beatrice's experience. The life she planned and the one she ended up with once Samuel wooed/derailed her! The horror of her trapped existence and the potential that the dead wives will free her by consuming her, or Samuel - either of which scenarios would release her.
I agree that the story's retelling held true to the old tale, while adding the richness and particularly different facts for a fresh view. I felt the author enjoyed creating the horror of the 3rd room, quite different and more lurid than even the original tale.
Hello Kathie-Louise, and Joan. Thank you for offering your thoughts on this tale, and my apologies for taking so long to response. I was not trapped in a third or hidden room, but offline for a while dealing with some health issues.
I'm fascinated by your sense, Kathie-Louise, that the story seems to shift to a more 'ancient, darker' time after Samuel and Beatrice marry: I'm wondering if this is partly due to the way that (dark) magic, old patterns, and the dead appear in these sections, while earlier the story takes place in the more social, real world?
Intereting, too, that you describe Hopkinson's retelling as more 'lurid', Joan! I think that's true of quite a lot of more contemporary Bluebeard retellings, which do seem to relish and expand the horror aspects of the tale: more moodiness in the setting, more of a sense of threat in the husband, more lush descriptions of the fantastical and horrific elements. Did you enjoy this more lush, Gothic approach to the story? Or do you prefer the more pared-back aesthetic of the traditional tales?
I enjoyed reading the interpretation of this classic tale from a fresh cultural perspective, especially the clear combination of Beauty and the Beast with Bluebeard. The snake, such a world wide creature of evil, or awakening, surely gives Beatrice the opportunity to change her fate where her street smartness and the motherly advice would not suffice, a creature which may or may not be a reference to Christianity. It speaks loudly, as does "Bluebeard," of women's abilities to see what is in front of her...or not.
I would like to hear any voice suggesting the roll of eggs in the story, whether those with a hard shell consumed by the snake, or the one, soft and unprotected which Beatrice holds in her hand as she discovers the horrors wrought by "Black Beauty."
Hello Joan! So lovely to hear your thoughts on Hopkinson's tale. (My apologies for the delay in getting back to you! I've been offline/unwell).
I do think the snake in Hopkinson evokes the Christian Biblical images of the serpent in the garden of eden. The similarities/links between Bluebeard, and the temptation of Eve, have been noted and explored by various scholars and creators: it's no great surprise that Hopkinson might also draw on that Christian imagery.
At the same time, I wonder if the snake is always seen as evil, in folklore and other cultural settings. In Ancient Rome, the snake was associated with Asclepius, the god of healing, and snake amulets were often worn to promote healing and bodily wellbeing. They are also often associated (in various cultures) with transformation and rebirth (perhaps because of their shedding and renewal?), as well as with oracles and seers. The symbol of the ourobouros (the snake swallowing its own tail) is associated with cycles, renewal, and rebirth. Can you think of other positive, or more neutral, ways in which snakes show up in culture and folklore? (Or perhaps more unusual or unfamiliar negative associations!).
Carina is correct (thanks C!) that the egg appears in Fitcher's Bird, a variant of Bluebeard included in the Grimms' KHM. Margaret Atwood also uses the image of the egg in her short story, 'Bluebeard's egg' (which appeared in the short story collection of the same title), and within the story explores some of the folkloric and fairy-tale imagery of the tale type, as well as the meaning of the egg as a symbol: of virginity in its uncracked, pure state, of (potential) motherhood, and of murder and death when dirty. Atwood's tale also includes images of a bloodied egg (which reminds me of the folkloric narrative about Mary M and Jesus: that when he encounters her on the road after he's risen from the grave, he touches an egg she is carrying, and it turns blood-red.)
Snakes, of course, are also egg-layers ...
My chickens recently hatched some new chicks, and watching that process reminds me that eggs (like wombs) are great keepers of secrets. Are (sacred) secret chambers, which we must not open until the correct time. And within which we never know (until the hatching) what is hiding/growing.
I wonder what symbolic or cultural associations snakes and/or eggs have in Carribean culture?
Thanks for responding.
The egg comes from Fitcher's Bird (ATU 311), which has many similarities to Bluebeard. What I think works so well in Nalo's story is the representation of the egg as a symbol of fertility. The cultural aspects related to skin color and the antagonist's desire for a wife with light skin adds another level of observation. It's brilliant!
Thanks, Carina
The forensic aspect of the tale is kind of glorious and I'm still enjoying that line: "The duppy wives held their bellies and glared at her, anger flaring hot behind their eyes." I love the anger of the 'murdered wives.' I do love the tale more when it shifts from the murderer to the victims. And the mother's influence is intriguing - how her initial anger and pushiness is warped to the husband's desire.
I agree, the anger of the mistreated women in the story is perfectly conveyed through the eyes of the dead wives.
Hello Rebecca-Anne and Kathie-Louise! Thanks for your lovely response, Rebecca, and my apologies for being slow to reply.
It's a strong feature of contemporary feminist retellings of fairy tales to shift to a female character's viewpoint, and to give previously silent or voiceless characters a voice: control of their own narrative. I agree, that's part of the strong appeal of many feminist retellings of Bluebeard, including Hopkinson's grand and dark tale :)
The rage of the murdered wives is wonderful. I've just been reading a collection of ghost stories, in which there's lots of evidence that we often think of ghosts as angry, and vengeful. That often they're the 'victims' of murders or untimely death: their rage enough to allow them to still appear in the living world until the injustice they suffered is corrected or repaired.
Is this, then, a kind of ghost story? Hmmm ...
I love the mother, too, and her role in the story. There's so much rich exploration in this story of the intersections of race, ethnicity, class, power, and gender, and how so much of that is acted out on the bodies, and in the lives, of (men and) women. But especially young women: the most disempowered folk, whose choices are so often (historically and now?) constrained.
How do you feel about the mother, and her role, by the story's end? Do you have any sympathy or understanding for why and how she pushes the daughter into the relationship? Is she a victim of racism and class/gender crap, too, or maybe--like Aunt Lydia in Atwood's *Handmaid's Tale*--an upholder of sexist and racist values? Or is her character more complex than that? More ambiguous?
That was the bit I chewed over for a long time - the mother's role. She starts in a really positive way - but she may just be a lesson in how the offer of comfort and security overcomes intial feminist ambition? It would be interesting to play with how it relates to today's 'tradwife' trend, too, particularly with those intersections of race and power? Particularly when you look at how many of the 'tradwives' have built their own independent businesses on submissive beliefs. Hmmm... I haven't quite thought that through yet!
I do really really like the idea of Bluebeard as a ghost story and it would be so effective that way. The shift to justice in the tale is much more appealing than the old chestnut about feminine curiosity.
I think that's definitely one way to read the mother: as an example of how our politics are never 'pure' but often situational, contextual, and ... partial? How what we consider good and ethical and appropriate behaviour is impacted by a complex weave of factors, that includes our politics, but isn't reducible to them.
Interesting idea about tradwives and the mother. I'm thinking that there have, historically, been a few women who have gained fame, power, etc, by arguing against women's rights and autonomy historically, as well (I'm thinking of folk like Phyllis Schlafly, or those women who got behind the #WomenAgainstFeminism trend in 2014). Maybe there is something interesting there to explore about why women participate in their own oppression and/or the oppression of other women? (And, in Hopkinson's story, why people of colour might participate in the oppression of themselves and other POC).
I'm intrigued by this idea of justice in the fairy tale. Zipes has that whole thing (in which text! I'm drawing a blank right now!) about how the world of the fairy tale leans towards justice, and that that is part of it's appeal. I think this is true of many fictional worlds, actually. Both realist and non-realist. But perhaps more obviously true in fairy-tale fiction, where justice is often even more important to a story's resolution than the traditional HEA.
So much to think about!
I like your much better encapsulation of the mother's politics!! And exactly - there is a curious twist where women do turn on each other and it crops up in the oddest places. Underlying misogyny impacts us all.
Zipes did right about the leaning toward justice and I can't recall which book either! I think Marina Warner touched on it too? In speaking about the Arabian Nights, she says “The stories are most often about justice. In her stories, those who commit injustice, or act tyrannically, come to no good. They are punished.” The retribution! I think that's the most satisfying part. All the gruesome deaths of the villains.
Hi Nike, Happy New Year to the O&B. I do agree that the length & detail of the last roundtable was a bit overwhelming - & that's from someone currently working on several Bluebeard reimagining projects (with one poem just published). But, also its timing (2 days before Xmas) may have factored in with the low responses in this instance! I had to divide my reading of it over at least 2 sittings, then make another time to quickly re-read & reply.
As Bluebeard is my current "passion project", I wanted to ensure I responded - & did so a few days ago, engaging with the material & asking some questions - & no one has responded or even indicated it's been read with a "like", so I have to say when a writer makes that effort & there's no response at all ... well, it ends up not really feeling like a roundtable! I was discouraged in my intention to return & make some more observations by that lack of response.
I think a little less info & a little more spaciousness is a great approach for the new year. I'll try & make time to read this re-telling today.
Hello Melissa. The traditional tale is meant to be an introduction. It's been a busy end of the year, but I've responded to your comment. It sounds like you have an interesting project in the works.
This issue's reading roundtable focuses on a specific 'Bluebeard' tale-- Nalo Hopkinson's 'The glass bottle trick'. It's one of my personal favorites when it comes to 'Bluebeard' retellings. By placing this tale in a different cultural context, I think she opens the story up in a new and unexpected way. The blue bottles and the egg create vivid images. Looking forward to seeing what you think of it.
Hello Melissa! Lovely to hear from you. Thanks for your feedback on the reading roundtables, and your experience of responding to the traditional tale but not hearing back for a while. As you say, and Carina affirms, the December/January turnover is a busy and distracted time for so many of us: we're grateful for your patience and forbearance.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Hopkinson's short story when you have time to read and post. Perhaps it will influence your creative process/thoughts on how to retell this old, and often retold, story with a fresh twist or take.
The protagonist only falls for him when she receives eggplants (eggs again) from his garden. I assumed this implied a magical aspect to the turn of feeling, much like the blue bottles kept the angry spirits of his previous wives at bay.